撒切爾夫人英國(guó)國(guó)會(huì)辯論經(jīng)典片段（雙語）

On economic and monetary union, I stressed that we would be ready to move beyond the present position to the creation of a European monetary fund and a common community currency which we have called a hard ECU. But we would not be prepared to agree to set a date for starting the next stage of economic and monetary union before there is any agreement on what that stage should comprise. And I again emphasised that we would not be prepared to have a single currency imposed upon us, nor to surrender the use of the pound sterling as our currency.

關(guān)于經(jīng)濟(jì)和貨幣聯(lián)盟，我強(qiáng)調(diào)過我們需要做好準(zhǔn)備，跨越目前的處境，來建立一個(gè)歐洲貨幣基金和共同的通用貨幣，也就是我們所說的歐洲貨幣單位。但在開始為下一階段的經(jīng)濟(jì)和貨幣聯(lián)盟登上舞臺(tái)做好準(zhǔn)備之前，我們并不會(huì)為這個(gè)協(xié)議的實(shí)現(xiàn)設(shè)定一個(gè)日期。我再次強(qiáng)調(diào)，我們不愿被逼使用統(tǒng)一貨幣，也不會(huì)屈服于把英鎊作為我們的使用貨幣的做法。

It is our purpose to retain the power and influence of this House, and not to denude it of many of the powers. I wonder what the right honourable gentleman's policy is, in view of some of the things he said. Would he have agreed to a commitment to extend the Community's powers to other supplementary sectors of economic integrations without having any definition of what they are? Would he? Because you would've thought he would from what he said. One of them was that the Commission wants to extend its powers and competence into the area of health. We said no. We weren't going to agree to those since on what he says, he sounded as if he would, for the sake of agreeing, for the sake of being little sir echo, and saying, "Me too."

我們的目的就是保留政府的權(quán)利以及影響，而不是剝奪他們的權(quán)利。鑒于剛剛你所說的事情，這位正直尊貴的紳士，我想知道你的政策是什么?在沒有任何明確定義的情況下，他會(huì)同意擴(kuò)大聯(lián)盟的權(quán)力來補(bǔ)充其他行業(yè)沒有的經(jīng)濟(jì)融合嗎?他會(huì)嗎?你們會(huì)認(rèn)為他會(huì)說到做到。其中之一是，歐盟委員會(huì)希望將權(quán)力和能力擴(kuò)展至醫(yī)療健康領(lǐng)域。我們不贊成，我們并不打算同意他所說的一切，他聽起來似乎是會(huì)這樣做，僅僅是為了一種妥協(xié)而已，或者是一種紳士的態(tài)度，所以他會(huì)說 “我也會(huì)。”

Would the he have agreed to extending qualified majority of voting within the Council, to delegating implementing powers to the Commission, to a common security policy, all without any attempt to define or limit them? The answer is yes. He hasn't got a clue about the definition of some of the things he is saying, let alone securing a definition of others.

在沒有任何限制和定義的情況下，他會(huì)同意理事會(huì)擴(kuò)大合格的多數(shù)投票來將權(quán)力委托給委員會(huì)或制定一個(gè)常見的安全政策，嗎?答案是肯定的。他還搞不清楚的他所定義的一些事情，更別提關(guān)于其他的定義了。

Yes, the Commission does want to increase its powers. Yes, it is a non-elected body and I do not want the Commission to increase its powers against its House. So of course we are differing. Of course the chairman or the president of the Commission, Mr. Delors, said at a press conference the other day that he wanted the European Parliament to be the democratic body of the Community, he wanted the Commission to be the executive and he wanted the Council of Ministers to be the Senate. No. No. No.

的確，委員會(huì)并不想要增加它的權(quán)利。是的，這是一個(gè)非選舉產(chǎn)生的主體，我并不希望委員會(huì)增加權(quán)利來對(duì)抗政府。所以我們當(dāng)然在改變。Delors先生作為委員會(huì)的主席或總統(tǒng)，在新聞發(fā)布會(huì)上說有一天他希望歐洲議會(huì)是一個(gè)民主機(jī)構(gòu)，他希望委員會(huì)執(zhí)行力能更強(qiáng)，他希望內(nèi)閣會(huì)議由參議院指出，但這些都沒能實(shí)現(xiàn)。

Or, or perhaps the Labour Party would give all those things up easily. Perhaps they would agree to a single currency to total abolition of the pound sterling. Perhaps being totally incompetent with monetary matters, they'd be only too delighted to hand over the full responsibility as they did to the IMF, to a central bank. The fact is, they have no competence on money, no competence on the economy, so, yes, the right honourable gentleman would be glad to hand it all over. And what is the point in trying to get elected to Parliament only to hand over your sterling and to hand over the powers of this House to Europe?

也許工黨會(huì)將所有這些事情變得很容易。也許他們會(huì)同意用一個(gè)單一貨幣來廢除英鎊。也許這完全算不上是貨幣問題，他們會(huì)非常高興地將所有責(zé)任轉(zhuǎn)交給中央銀行。事實(shí)是，他們?cè)谪泿耪呱蠠o所作為，在經(jīng)濟(jì)發(fā)展上同樣一事無成，所以這位正直尊貴的紳士很愿意完全交出責(zé)任。那么你們?cè)谧h會(huì)中獲選，僅僅是為了將手中的金錢和權(quán)利移交給歐洲政府嗎?

Norman Tebbit：My right honourable friend not agree that the mark of a single currency is that all other currencies must be extinguished. And not nearly extinguished, but that the capacity of other institutions to issue currency has to be extinguished. And that in the case of the United Kingdom, would involve this parliament binding its successors in a way which we have hitherto regarded as unconstitutional.

Norman Tebbit:

我親愛的朋友并不認(rèn)為單一貨幣是其他貨幣必須消失的標(biāo)志。或者并不是消失，而是其他部門對(duì)金錢的控制力應(yīng)該消除。在英國(guó)的情況來說，應(yīng)該讓議會(huì)將其繼承者和我們認(rèn)為的非憲法行為結(jié)合起來。

This government has no intention of abolishing the pound sterling. If the hard ECU evolved into much much greater use, that would be a decision for future parliaments and future generations. It would be a decision which could only be taken once, and a decision which should not be approached in this atmosphere, but only after the greatest possible consideration. I believe both Parliament and sterling have served our country and the rest of the world very well. I believe we are more stable and more influential with it, I believe it is an expression of sovereignty. This Government believe in the pound sterling.

政府并不打算廢除英鎊。如果歐元的能力越來越強(qiáng)大，也許該由未來的議會(huì)和下一代來做出決定。這個(gè)決定只能做一次，但并不是現(xiàn)在，需要在進(jìn)行過非常謹(jǐn)慎的思考之后。我相信議會(huì)和英鎊為我們的國(guó)家以及其他國(guó)家服務(wù)得非常好。政府相信英鎊。

Dr. David Owen: Is it not perfectly clear that what was being attempted at Rome was a bounce and a bounce that led only one way, and that was to a single federal united states of Europe? And is it not vital that in this House, across party lines, it is possible for a prime minister to go and make it clear, if necessary, that Britain is prepared to stand alone? We don's relish it, but that if necessary, if we are faced by the imposition, by treaty of an obligation to a single currency and a situation which would prevent enlargement to Poland, Hungary and Czechoslovakia, Britain would be entitled and right to use the veto?

Dr. David Owen：我們現(xiàn)在還不是很清楚，羅馬經(jīng)濟(jì)是否在反彈，經(jīng)濟(jì)反彈又會(huì)給這個(gè)聯(lián)邦制的歐洲合眾國(guó)造成怎樣的影響?并不是至關(guān)重要的，在這政府里，跨越黨派界線，就有可能靠一個(gè)首相去弄清楚，如果有必要，英國(guó)正在準(zhǔn)備孤軍奮戰(zhàn)?我們不喜歡它，但是，如果有必要，如果我們面臨的實(shí)施，通過條約的義務(wù)統(tǒng)一的貨幣和情況來防止歐盟東擴(kuò)至波蘭、匈牙利和捷克斯洛伐克，英國(guó)將擁有和有權(quán)使用否決權(quán)嗎?

Mr. Ron Leighton: There is no majority in the House for EMU, but is the Prime Minister aware that I attended a conference in Italy last year at which an Italian Minister spoke to me about EMU? I said, "What if Mrs. Thatcher opposes it?" And ungallantly, he laughed loud and he said, "We have met Mrs. Thatcher many times - she squawks and makes a noise at the beginning but always comes round and gives way in the end." Now what assurances and guarantees can seek of this House today that she will not give way on this issue, as she did give way on the Madrid condition about British inflation before joining the ERM?

Mr. Ron Leighton：支持貨幣不統(tǒng)一化的占多數(shù)，但是部長(zhǎng)你還記得去年我在意大利參加會(huì)議時(shí)，意大利部長(zhǎng)和我說的這件事嗎?我當(dāng)時(shí)說;“如果撒切爾夫人反對(duì)的話怎么辦?”他笑的很大聲，然后說，“我們見過撒切爾夫人很多次了，她總是在一開始意見很多，反對(duì)不休，但最終會(huì)妥協(xié)。”在這種情況下，什么樣的擔(dān)保和保證能夠確保她一開始的反對(duì)不會(huì)化為最終的妥協(xié)呢?尤其是她曾在英國(guó)通貨膨脹之后妥協(xié)于馬德里條約加入了匯率機(jī)制。

That is what they said, Mr Speaker, when I was negotiating for a better budget deal for Britain. Twice, they and the people in the Commission and our people in the Commission and we had the presidency of the Commission, advised me to give way. They found out differently.

這是他們說的，當(dāng)我曾為了英國(guó)進(jìn)行更好的財(cái)務(wù)溝通時(shí)，他們以及委員會(huì)的人以及我們的人溝通之后，勸我還是妥協(xié)。但他們現(xiàn)在的說法完全不一樣。

Mr. Tony Favell: Mr Speaker, next Wednesday, the doors of this Chamber will be closed to Black Rod as a symbol of the independence of this House. What would be the effect on the independence of this House and the nation which elects it if the power to veto proposals affecting social affairs, the environment and taxation were to be removed?

Mr. Tony Favell：下周三，這個(gè)房間的門將會(huì)對(duì)黑人關(guān)閉，作為政府獨(dú)立的象征。那么政府的獨(dú)立會(huì)有什么樣的效果?投反對(duì)票的國(guó)家呢?受到影響的社會(huì)事件，環(huán)境以及稅率會(huì)變嗎?

Mr Speaker, I hope that, when the next election comes, people who want to come to this House will come to uphold its powers and its responsibilities, and not to denude the House of them. We have surrendered some of them to the Community. In my view we have surrendered enough. 我希望，當(dāng)下一屆選舉到來之時(shí)，人們想要進(jìn)入政府的能夠擔(dān)當(dāng)好自己的權(quán)利和責(zé)任，而不是屈服于政府中的其他人。我們已經(jīng)向某些人妥協(xié)了，我認(rèn)為已經(jīng)足夠了。

Mr. Tony Benn: And then is the Prime Minister aware that what we are really discussing is not matter of economic management, but the whole future of the relation between this country and Europe? Are the British people when they vote in a general election to be able to change the policies of the government that has previously veto? And it is already a fact, as the House knows full well, that whatever Government is in power, our agricultural policy is now controlled from Brussels, our trade policy is controlled from Brussels and our industrial policy is controlled from Brussels and if we go into EMU, our financial policy will be controlled. It is a democratic argument, not a nationalistic argument. But now as they say this is the Prime Minister and it’d be the member of the Government who took us into the EC without consulting the British people, having been the Prime Minister of the Government who agreed to the Single European Act without consulting the British people, having now agreed to the ERM without consulting the British people. We find it hard to believe that she is really intent on preserving democracy rather than gaining some political advantage from waving some national argument in the eve of a general election. That is why we do not trust her own judgment on the matter.

Mr. Tony Benn：部長(zhǎng)意識(shí)到我們實(shí)際上討論的并不是經(jīng)濟(jì)的管理問題，而是我們國(guó)家和歐洲未來關(guān)系的走向問題。英國(guó)人民在大選當(dāng)中投票能夠改變政府先前的投票結(jié)果嗎?這已是一個(gè)事實(shí)，政府心里也很清楚，無論政府有著什么樣的權(quán)利，我們的農(nóng)業(yè)政策是掌控在布魯塞爾手里，我們的貿(mào)易政策，工業(yè)政策也是如此。如果我們加入統(tǒng)一匯率機(jī)制，我們的金融政策也會(huì)被控制。這是一個(gè)共和的爭(zhēng)辯，并不是一個(gè)國(guó)家的爭(zhēng)辯。但是他們說這是部長(zhǎng)，政府的一員使英國(guó)人在不知情的情況下加入了歐盟，那么也可以在英國(guó)人不知情的情況下加入統(tǒng)一的貨幣機(jī)制。我們覺得很難去相信她真正的目的保留共和而不是在大選前夕從一些國(guó)家辯論中獲得更多的政治優(yōu)勢(shì)。這也是為什么我們不相信她在這件事上將會(huì)做出合理決斷的原因。

Mr Speaker, I think that I would put it just a little bit differently from the right honorable Gentleman, although I recognise some of the force of some of the points that he is making. I think when the Delors proposals for EMU came out, the economic and monetary union, it was said immediately by my right hon. Friend, the then Chancellor of the Exchequer that this was not really about monetary policy at all. It is really about a back door to a federal Europe, a federal Europe taking many many democratic powers away from democratically elected bodies to non-elected ones. I believe fervently that that is true, which is why I will have nothing to do with their definition of economic and monetary union.

我認(rèn)為想對(duì)那位紳士提出一點(diǎn)點(diǎn)不同的意見，盡管我在某種程度上承認(rèn)他說的話。我認(rèn)為Delors對(duì)統(tǒng)一貨幣機(jī)制的建議來自于經(jīng)濟(jì)和貨幣協(xié)會(huì)。朋友們，這一切和貨幣政策毫無相關(guān)。這實(shí)際上是對(duì)聯(lián)邦歐盟開后門的表現(xiàn)，聯(lián)邦的歐盟用很多共和的手段來使得有選舉機(jī)制的國(guó)家朝著無選舉機(jī)制發(fā)展。這是我的想法。這也是我為什么認(rèn)為他們的經(jīng)濟(jì)和貨幣聯(lián)盟定義毫無意義的原因。