從昂山素季到強(qiáng)勢(shì)母親：楊紫瓊談緬甸暴行與種族歧視

Michelle Yeoh was an established martial arts star in Asia by the time Western audiences came to know her, first as a Bond girl and then a balletic warrior in the 2000 hit “Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.” During Yeoh’s action-hero days, she performed her own stunts — like launching herself and the motorcycle she was riding onto a moving train — and was at one point, she said, uninsurable. Little wonder, then, that Yeoh’s portrayal of the imperious mother, Eleanor Young, in the summer smash “Crazy Rich Asians” was so ferocious. Now she and her co-stars are nominated for the top prize, outstanding performance by a cast, at the Screen Actors Guild Awards on Jan. 27. (The film is also up for a Golden Globe for best musical or comedy at Sunday’s ceremony.)

等到西方觀眾知道她的時(shí)候——先是通過(guò)邦女郎，后來(lái)又有2000年大熱的《臥虎藏龍》中動(dòng)作優(yōu)雅的女俠——楊紫瓊(Michelle Yeoh)在亞洲已經(jīng)是知名的動(dòng)作明星了：在楊紫瓊的動(dòng)作英雄生涯中，她親自出演特技——比如連人帶摩托車(chē)飛到一列行駛的火車(chē)上——以致于她說(shuō)自己一度無(wú)法投保。因此，看到楊紫瓊在去年夏季大獲成功的《瘋狂的亞洲富人》(Crazy Rich Asians)中刻畫(huà)的專(zhuān)橫母親埃莉諾·楊(Eleanor Young)如此霸氣，也就不奇怪了?，F(xiàn)在她和同劇組的明星們已經(jīng)獲得1月27日的美國(guó)演員工會(huì)獎(jiǎng)(Screen Actors Guild Awards)最高獎(jiǎng)項(xiàng)——最佳集體演出獎(jiǎng)的提名。(該片還在角逐周日將舉辦頒獎(jiǎng)禮的金球獎(jiǎng)音樂(lè)/喜劇類(lèi)最佳影片。)

During a recent trip to New York, Yeoh — who is 56, and cut an edgy figure wearing head-to-toe black and a supple motorbike jacket — met me at the Four Seasons for black coffee and a conversation about the film, the racism she encountered in her earlier years, and her heartbreak over Myanmar’s repressive government under Daw Aung San Suu Kyi, the Nobel Peace Prize laureate Yeoh played in the 2012 biopic “The Lady.”

在最近一次紐約之行中，56歲的楊紫瓊——瘦削的身材、從頭到腳的黑色著裝、柔軟的機(jī)車(chē)夾克——和我在四季酒店見(jiàn)面，喝著黑咖啡聊了這部影片，她早年遭遇的種族歧視，以及她對(duì)昂山素季(Daw Aung San Suu Kyi)領(lǐng)導(dǎo)下的緬甸專(zhuān)制政府感到的痛心疾首——在2012年的傳記影片《昂山素季》(The Lady)中，楊紫瓊出演了這位諾貝爾和平獎(jiǎng)獲得者。

Here are edited excerpts.

以下是編輯的摘要。

It is almost unfathomable that “Crazy Rich Asians” was the first Hollywood movie with a contemporary setting and a majority Asian-American cast since “Joy Luck Club” in 1993.

《瘋狂的亞洲富人》是自1993年《喜福會(huì)》以來(lái)，首部以當(dāng)代為背景、由亞裔美國(guó)人為主的劇組出演的好萊塢影片，這實(shí)在是不可思議。

Asian communities are so hungry, they never see themselves on the big screen. Honestly when I first came out here, suddenly to be told I’m a minority was a big shock. I came from China — how did I suddenly switch to being a minority? We want to be represented, we don’t want to be invisible, we don’t want to be told that we’re not good enough to be on the silver screens. You don’t have to treat us special. Just treat us as equals.

亞裔群體太渴望了，他們從來(lái)都看不到自己出現(xiàn)在大銀幕上。說(shuō)實(shí)話，在剛來(lái)這里，突然被告知我是少數(shù)群體時(shí)，我大吃了一驚。我來(lái)自中國(guó)——怎么會(huì)突然變作少數(shù)群體呢?我們想要被表達(dá)，我們不想被視而不見(jiàn)，我們不想被告知我們不夠好不能上銀幕。你們不用給我們特別對(duì)待。平等對(duì)待就好。

Was your mom like Eleanor?

你媽媽像埃莉諾嗎?

Oh no. My mom is not Eleanor at all. She’s not a hippie, but she’s very carefree, very outgoing. Eleanor would be truly my homage to the mothers that I know in Asia. A lot of my friends or my friends’ mothers.

哦不像。我媽媽完全不是埃莉諾。她不是嬉皮士，但她很無(wú)憂無(wú)慮，很外向。埃莉諾可能真的是我在向我所認(rèn)識(shí)的亞洲母親們致敬：我很多朋友或朋友的母親。

Your crazy rich Asian friends?

你的那些狂有錢(qián)的亞洲朋友們?

Ha ha. Yes. And their mothers-in-law. Or their mothers. Because I drew a lot of inspiration from them.

哈哈。是的。還有他們的婆婆，或者他們的母親。因?yàn)槲覐乃麄兡抢铽@得了很多靈感。

[Read our review of “Crazy Rich Asians.”]

[參考閱讀《瘋狂的亞洲富人》時(shí)報(bào)影評(píng)文章。]

Eleanor was up to the last moment trying to please her mother-in-law. She wanted her son to look good because she wasn’t good enough.

埃莉諾直到最后一刻還在取悅她的婆婆。她想要兒子看上去好些，因?yàn)樗粔蚝谩?/p>

That was the one thing we really, really worked on. We needed Eleanor to be vulnerable to make her more human. In the book Eleanor was black-and-white-movies mean. I didn’t want her to be a villain. I wanted her to have very high standards, to be very elegant. But the most important thing, what we really worked on, is the love between the mother and son.

這的的確確是我們?cè)谂ψ龊玫囊患?。我們需要埃莉諾有些脆弱，從而讓她更人性。在書(shū)中，埃莉諾是黑白片式的刻薄。我不想把她當(dāng)成一個(gè)大反派。我想讓她有非常高的標(biāo)準(zhǔn)、非常優(yōu)雅。但最重要的事情，我們真正下功夫的，是母子之間的愛(ài)。

The mah-jongg scene was great. I take it you know how to play.

麻將那場(chǎng)戲很棒。從中我猜你是會(huì)打牌的。

Yes, it’s my sort of specialty, I had no problem in that scene at all. It was the showdown, right? And the movie could’ve ended there. At the end of the day it wasn’t a prince-Cinderella movie. If you look at all of the women, they all were stronger. They weren’t waiting to be rescued.

是的，這差不多算我的特長(zhǎng)，那場(chǎng)戲我一點(diǎn)問(wèn)題都沒(méi)有。那是要攤牌了，對(duì)吧?影片也可以在那里結(jié)束。但歸根結(jié)底，這不是一部“王子和灰姑娘”式的電影。你去看里面所有女性，她們都變得更強(qiáng)大了。她們沒(méi)有在等待被拯救。

Eleanor had a very intense presence.

埃莉諾有種很緊繃的儀態(tài)。

Eleanor was very composed. She didn’t talk with her hands. She was very contained. For a character like that, she has to command a lot of attention, with the stillness. That I worked on.

埃莉諾很沉著。她從不用手勢(shì)表達(dá)。她很從容。對(duì)于那樣一個(gè)角色，她必須在靜中吸引許多的注意力。這也是我努力去表現(xiàn)的。

“The Lady” was quite contained.

《昂山素季》很克制。

“The Lady” is. But “The Lady” is also very emotional on other levels.

《昂山素季》的確是。但從其他層面講《昂山素季》又是很情緒化的。

How are you reacting to news about the atrocities against Rohingya Muslims under Aung San Suu Kyi’s leadership?

你對(duì)昂山素季領(lǐng)導(dǎo)下針對(duì)羅辛亞穆斯林的暴行有何感受?

I feel very against of course what is happening to the Rohingyas. We do have a foundation inside Burma. We felt when the country opened up, it’s not the top layer [of society] that needed help. It’s the rest. But they adore her. Because they really believe that she’s trying to do whatever she can for the lower people.

我當(dāng)然非常反對(duì)針對(duì)羅辛亞人的行為。我們?cè)诰挼橛幸粋€(gè)基金會(huì)。我們感到，當(dāng)這個(gè)國(guó)家走向開(kāi)放時(shí)，需要幫助的不是(社會(huì)的)頂層。而是其他人。但是他們崇拜她。因?yàn)樗麄冋娴南嘈潘诒M力為底層人民服務(wù)。

They still adore her?

他們現(xiàn)在還崇拜她嗎?

They still feel like that. But the thing is, it’s so complicated. I don’t believe she has the power. Maybe she’ll hate me for saying this. She has no power. The power is still with the military.

他們?nèi)匀挥羞@種感覺(jué)。但問(wèn)題是，這太復(fù)雜了。我不相信她有這種能力。也許我這么說(shuō)她會(huì)恨我。她沒(méi)有權(quán)力。權(quán)力仍然掌握在軍方手中。

Are you in touch with her?

你和她有聯(lián)系嗎?

We are in touch with her. But recently it has been very difficult because of all the things that have been going on. But she knows that I have been a little bit outspoken about the fact that I’ve been so disappointed. It’s tragic.

我們和她有聯(lián)系。但是最近情況變得很困難，因?yàn)榘l(fā)生了各種各樣的事情。但她知道我在公開(kāi)說(shuō)我很失望。這很不幸。

It must be very strange for you, having played her. Do you think she should lose her Nobel?

你演過(guò)她，這感覺(jué)肯定很奇怪。你認(rèn)為她會(huì)失去諾貝爾獎(jiǎng)嗎?

I think we should really take a step back and try and understand. What they are condemning her for is for not speaking out. For not turning around and saying, “You are wrong, you shouldn’t have.” Yes, maybe she can do that and be thrown out of the country again. I feel that she’s trying to keep the door open so that there’s still dialogue within her country and she still can have some kind of say. What I fear is without the support of the international people, it’s easy for the military to just disregard her. So I think she’s in a really, really rough place.

我認(rèn)為我們真的應(yīng)該退后一步，試著去理解。他們譴責(zé)她沒(méi)有公開(kāi)發(fā)聲，沒(méi)有轉(zhuǎn)過(guò)身去說(shuō)：“你們錯(cuò)了，你們不應(yīng)該這樣。”是的，也許她可以這樣做，然后再次被驅(qū)逐出境。我覺(jué)得她在努力讓大門(mén)保持敞開(kāi)，這樣她的國(guó)家內(nèi)部仍然可以有對(duì)話，她仍然可以有一些發(fā)言權(quán)。我擔(dān)心的是，如果沒(méi)有國(guó)際上的支持，軍方就可以輕易把她拋開(kāi)了。所以我認(rèn)為她的處境非常非常艱難。

Let me ask you about another controversial thing.

我再問(wèn)你一個(gè)有爭(zhēng)議的問(wèn)題。

Why stop now while we’re at it? Don’t get me into trouble.

都說(shuō)到這里了何必停下來(lái)呢?別讓我惹上麻煩啊。

It’s been over a year since news about Harvey Weinstein broke. You have said you never had any trouble with sexual harassment, and if you had, you would have deployed your martial arts skills. What do you think about men hoping to come back?

哈維·韋恩斯坦(Harvey Weinstein)的事傳出來(lái)已經(jīng)有一年多了。你說(shuō)過(guò)你從來(lái)沒(méi)有遇到過(guò)性騷擾的麻煩，如果你遇到了，你會(huì)用武術(shù)來(lái)對(duì)付。你怎么看那些希望回到業(yè)界的男人?

It was an adjustment. Something that we needed to clean up. We needed skeletons to come out from the closet. The most important thing is that the person has changed and understands that all that is bad.

這是一種調(diào)整。是我們需要明確的東西。我們需要讓不可告人的秘密曝光。最重要的是這個(gè)人已經(jīng)改變了，明白了這一切都是不好的。

With “Crazy Rich Asians,” were there reactions to the film that surprised you?

對(duì)于《瘋狂的亞洲富人》，有沒(méi)有讓你感到驚訝的反應(yīng)?

Asians are quite reserved, but after the movie they’ve come up to me on the streets to say “Can I give you a hug? I just want to say thank you.” The first opening weekend, I was on my knees, because God forbid, if it didn’t work, it could’ve set us back 20 years.

亞洲人很含蓄的，但看完電影后，他們?cè)诮稚嫌龅轿业臅r(shí)候會(huì)說(shuō)：“我可以擁抱你嗎?我只想說(shuō)聲謝謝。”首映的第一個(gè)周末，我跪了下來(lái)，因?yàn)樯系郾Ｓ?，如果這部片子不成功，我們可能會(huì)倒退20年。

I was shocked by the opening scene, the intense discrimination aimed at Eleanor’s family. I thought it couldn’t have been like that in the ’90s.

影片開(kāi)始的一幕讓我震驚，就是對(duì)埃莉諾家人的強(qiáng)烈歧視。我以為90年代不可能是這樣的。

[Yeoh arches a brow and shoots me a piercing “Girl, you’re so naïve” look.]

(楊紫瓊揚(yáng)起眉毛，犀利的眼神仿佛在說(shuō):“姑娘，你太天真了。”)

I remember when I first went to Paris, in the late ’80s, early ’90s. Every time I walked into a store, the women would fold their arms. They wouldn’t even speak to me. So the next day, my ex sent his designer to go shopping with me, and doors flew open.

我記得我第一次去巴黎是在80年代末90年代初。每當(dāng)我走進(jìn)一家店，女人們都會(huì)抱起胳膊。她們甚至不和我說(shuō)話。所以第二天，我的前男友派他的設(shè)計(jì)師和我一起去購(gòu)物，那些門(mén)一下子就打開(kāi)了。

Just like “Pretty Woman”!

就像《風(fēng)月俏佳人》(Pretty Woman)那樣!

You’d be surprised how racist people were at that time, it’s a shame. But I’m glad it’s not like that now. I work with the [United Nations Development Program] as a good-will ambassador, to promote gender equality, all these things we [need] to have a better world, more peaceful world. If we don’t we’re not going to be able to save our world. We have to work together, start dialogue together and have no judgment. Why are we so judgmental?

你會(huì)驚訝于當(dāng)時(shí)人們的種族主義有多嚴(yán)重，很遺憾。但我很高興現(xiàn)在不是這樣了。作為一名親善大使，我與聯(lián)合國(guó)開(kāi)發(fā)計(jì)劃署(United Nations Development Program)合作，促進(jìn)性別平等，我們(需要)的一切就是擁有一個(gè)更美好、更和平的世界。不這么做，我們就無(wú)法拯救世界。我們必須一起工作，一起開(kāi)展對(duì)話，不要有那么多臆斷。我們?yōu)槭裁茨敲聪矚g臆斷呢?

Twitter. It’s all Twitter’s fault.

Twitter。這都是Twitter的錯(cuò)。

I don’t know. I don’t know how to twit.

我不知道。我不知道怎么twit。