演講MP3+雙語(yǔ)文稿:資本主義的骯臟秘密

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【演講者及介紹】Nick Hanauer

企業(yè)家，思想家，他認(rèn)為我們的社會(huì)不平等現(xiàn)象越來(lái)越嚴(yán)重，給民主國(guó)家?guī)?lái)了可怕的后果。他創(chuàng)建、共同創(chuàng)建或資助了30多家公司，涉及多個(gè)行業(yè)。他是亞馬遜的第一個(gè)非家族投資者。

【演講主題】資本主義的骯臟秘密，以及前進(jìn)的新道路

【中英文字幕】

翻譯者 Cynthia Zym 校對(duì)者 psjmz mz

00:01

I am a capitalist, and after a 30-yearcareer in capitalism spanning three dozen companies, generating tens of of dollars in market value, I'm not just in the top one percent, I'min the top .01 percent of all earners. Today, I have come to share the secretsof our success, because rich capitalists like me have never been richer. So thequestion is, how do we do it? How do we manage to grab an ever-increasing shareof the economic pie every year? Is it that rich people are smarter than we were30 years ago? Is it that we're working harder than we once did? Are we taller,better looking?

我是一個(gè)資本家，我有30年資本主義生涯，橫跨三十多家公司，創(chuàng)造了數(shù)百億美元的市場(chǎng)價(jià)值，我不只是在前百分之一，我是所有收入者中收入最高的0.01%。今天，我來(lái)分享我們成功的秘訣，因?yàn)橄裎疫@樣富有的資本家從來(lái)沒(méi)有這么富有過(guò)。所以問(wèn)題是，我們?cè)趺醋? 我們是如何獲得了每年都不斷增長(zhǎng)的市場(chǎng)份額？是富人比30年前更聰明了嗎？是我們比以前工作的更勤奮了嗎？長(zhǎng)得更高了，更漂亮了？

00:51

Sadly, no. It all comes down to just onething: economics. Because, here's the dirty secret. There was a time in whichthe economics profession worked in the public interest, but in the neoliberalera, today, they work only for big corporations and billionaires, and that iscreating a little bit of a problem. We could choose to enact economic policiesthat raise taxes on the rich, regulate powerful corporations or raise wages forworkers. We have done it before. But neoliberal economists would warn that allof these policies would be a terrible mistake, because raising taxes alwayskills economic growth, and any form of government regulation is inefficient,and raising wages always kills jobs. Well, as a consequence of that thinking,over the last 30 years, in the USA alone, the top one percent has grown 21trillion dollars richer while the bottom 50 percent have grown 900 billiondollars poorer, a pattern of widening inequality that has largely repeateditself across the world. And yet, as middle class families struggle to get byon wages that have not budged in about 40 years, neoliberal economists continueto warn that the only reasonable response to the painful dislocations ofausterity and globalization is even more austerity and globalization.

可惜，不是。歸根結(jié)底是因?yàn)橐患拢航?jīng)濟(jì)。因?yàn)?，有這樣一個(gè)骯臟的秘密。有這樣一段時(shí)間經(jīng)濟(jì)學(xué)專業(yè)是為了大眾利益而服務(wù)的，但是在新自由主義時(shí)代，今天，他們只為了大公司集團(tuán)工作，以及億萬(wàn)富翁，這就產(chǎn)生了一些問(wèn)題。我們可以選擇制定經(jīng)濟(jì)政策對(duì)富人增稅，監(jiān)管強(qiáng)大的企業(yè)或提高工人工資。我們以前都做過(guò)。但新自由主義經(jīng)濟(jì)學(xué)家會(huì)發(fā)出警告所有這些政策都將是一個(gè)可怕的錯(cuò)誤，因?yàn)樵龆惪偸嵌髿⒔?jīng)濟(jì)增長(zhǎng)，以及任何形式的政府監(jiān)管都是沒(méi)有效率的，而提高工資總會(huì)扼殺工作機(jī)會(huì)。這樣的思考結(jié)果便是，過(guò)去30年間，光是美國(guó)，最富有的1%人口已經(jīng)比以前多掙了21萬(wàn)億美元而底部的50%人比以前少掙了9000億美元，一個(gè)擴(kuò)大的不平等格局再次上演遍及全球。然而，在中等階級(jí)家庭艱難獲得在過(guò)去40年里保持不變的工資，新自由主義經(jīng)濟(jì)學(xué)家繼續(xù)警告對(duì)于財(cái)政緊縮和全球化帶來(lái)的痛苦混亂的唯一正確的反應(yīng)是更加緊縮的財(cái)政以及全球化。

02:28

So, what is a society to do? Well, it'ssuper clear to me what we need to do. We need a new economics. So, economicshas been described as the dismal science, and for good reason, because as muchas it is taught today, it isn't a science at all, in spite of all of thedazzling mathematics. In fact, a growing number of academics and practitionershave concluded that neoliberal economic theory is dangerously wrong and thattoday's growing crises of rising inequality and growing political instabilityare the direct result of decades of bad economic theory. What we now know isthat the economics that made me so rich isn't just wrong, it's backwards,because it turns out it isn't capital that creates economic growth, it'speople; and it isn't self-interest that promotes the public good, it'sreciprocity; and it isn't competition that produces our prosperity, it'scooperation. What we can now see is that an economics that is neither just norinclusive can never sustain the high levels of social cooperation necessary toenable a modern society to thrive.

所以，社會(huì)該如何做？我很清楚我們需要怎么做。我們需要新型經(jīng)濟(jì)。因此，經(jīng)濟(jì)學(xué)被描述為一門沉悶的科學(xué)，有很好的理由，因?yàn)楸M管今天我們學(xué)了很多，這根本不是一門科學(xué)，盡管其中的數(shù)學(xué)令人眼花繚亂。事實(shí)上，越來(lái)越多的學(xué)者和實(shí)踐者得出結(jié)論認(rèn)為新自由主義經(jīng)濟(jì)理論是危險(xiǎn)的錯(cuò)誤 并且今天日益加劇的不平等危機(jī) 和不斷加劇的政治不穩(wěn)定 是幾十年來(lái)糟糕的經(jīng)濟(jì)理論 的直接結(jié)果。我們現(xiàn)在所知道的是，讓我如此 富有的經(jīng)濟(jì)學(xué)理論不僅是錯(cuò)的，而且是后退的，因?yàn)槭聦?shí)證明 不是資本創(chuàng)造了經(jīng)濟(jì)增長(zhǎng)，是群眾； 促進(jìn)公共利益的不是自身利益，是互惠； 不是競(jìng)爭(zhēng)造就了我們的繁榮，而是合作。我們現(xiàn)在看到的是一個(gè) 既不公正也不包容的經(jīng)濟(jì)體，永遠(yuǎn)無(wú)法維持讓現(xiàn)代社會(huì)繁榮 所必須的高水平的社會(huì)合作。

03:53

So where did we go wrong? Well, it turnsout that it's become painfully obvious that the fundamental assumptions thatundergird neoliberal economic theory are just objectively false, and so todayfirst I want to take you through some of those mistaken assumptions and thenafter describe where the science suggests prosperity actually comes from.

所以我們哪里做錯(cuò)了？ 其實(shí)，這是顯而易見(jiàn)的 那就是支撐新自由主義經(jīng)濟(jì)理論 的基本假設(shè) 在客觀上就是錯(cuò)誤的，所以今天我想先帶你們 看看這些錯(cuò)誤的假設(shè) 然后講講科學(xué)表明繁榮的真正來(lái)源。

04:21

So, neoliberal economic assumption numberone is that the market is an efficient equilibrium system, which basicallymeans that if one thing in the economy, like wages, goes up, another thing inthe economy, like jobs, must go down. So for example, in Seattle, where I live,when in 2014 we passed our nation's first 15 dollar minimum wage, theneoliberals freaked out over their precious equilibrium. "If you raise theprice of labor," they warned, "businesses will purchase less of it.Thousands of low-wage workers will lose their jobs. The restaurants willclose." Except ... they didn't. The unemployment rate fell dramatically.The restaurant business in Seattle boomed. Why? Because there is noequilibrium. Because raising wages doesn't kill jobs, it creates them; because,for instance, when restaurant owners are suddenly required to pay restaurantworkers enough so that now even they can afford to eat in restaurants, itdoesn't shrink the restaurant business, it grows it, obviously.

所以，新自由主義經(jīng)濟(jì)學(xué)的第一個(gè)假設(shè)是 市場(chǎng)是一個(gè)有效的均衡系統(tǒng)，也就是說(shuō)，如果經(jīng)濟(jì)中有一樣?xùn)|西，比如工資上漲，經(jīng)濟(jì)中的另一件事，比如就業(yè)，必須下降。例如，在我居住的西雅圖，2014年，我們通過(guò)了國(guó)家首個(gè) 15美元的最低工資標(biāo)準(zhǔn)，新自由主義者為他們寶貴的平衡而驚慌失措?！叭绻闾岣邉趧?dòng)力價(jià)格，”他們警告說(shuō)，“企業(yè)將減少購(gòu)買。成千上萬(wàn)的低收入工人將失去工作。餐館將會(huì)關(guān)門?！钡?..... 這都沒(méi)有發(fā)生。失業(yè)率急劇下降。西雅圖的餐飲業(yè)蓬勃發(fā)展。為什么？因?yàn)槭袌?chǎng)不是一個(gè)均衡系統(tǒng)。因?yàn)樘岣吖べY不會(huì)扼殺就業(yè)機(jī)會(huì)，而是創(chuàng)造就業(yè)機(jī)會(huì); 例如，因?yàn)?，?dāng)餐館老板突然被要求付給餐館員工足夠的工資時(shí)，所以現(xiàn)在即便他們也可以在餐館吃飯，它不會(huì)縮減餐飲業(yè)，反而呢，它增長(zhǎng)生意。

05:41

（Applause）

（歡呼）

05:42

Thank you.

謝謝。

05:46

The second assumption is that the price ofsomething is always equal to its value, which basically means that if you earn50,000 dollars a year and I earn 50 million dollars a year, that's because Iproduce a thousand times as much value as you. Now, it will not surprise you tolearn that this is a very comforting assumption if you're a CEO paying yourself50 million dollars a year but paying your workers poverty wages. But please,take it from somebody who has run dozens of businesses: this is nonsense.People are not paid what they are worth. They are paid what they have the powerto negotiate, and wages' falling share of GDP is not because workers havebecome less productive but because employers have become more powerful. And --

第二個(gè)假設(shè)是某物的價(jià)格總是等于它的價(jià)值，也就是說(shuō)如果你一年賺5萬(wàn)美元，我每年賺5000萬(wàn)美元，那是因?yàn)槲覄?chuàng)造的價(jià)值是你的一千倍。現(xiàn)在，這不會(huì)讓你太驚訝就是這是一個(gè)不錯(cuò)的假設(shè)，如果你是一個(gè)企業(yè)的CEO每年賺五千萬(wàn)并且你付給你的員工很低的工資的話。但是，請(qǐng)相信一位經(jīng)營(yíng)過(guò)幾十家企業(yè)的人: 這是無(wú)稽之談。人們的工資與他們的價(jià)值無(wú)關(guān)。他們得到的報(bào)酬是他們有權(quán)協(xié)商的，工資占GDP的比例在下降不是因?yàn)楣と说纳a(chǎn)力下降了，而是因?yàn)楣椭鞯臋?quán)力變大了。而且

06:43

（Applause）

（歡呼）

06:47

And by pretending that the giant imbalancein power between capital and labor doesn't exist, neoliberal economic theorybecame essentially a protection racket for the rich.

而且通過(guò)假裝資本和勞動(dòng)力之間巨大的力量不平衡根本不存在，新自由主義經(jīng)濟(jì)理論在根本上 就是富人的保護(hù)傘。

07:01

The third assumption, and by far the mostpernicious, is a behavioral model that describes human beings as somethingcalled "homo economicus," which basically means that we are allperfectly selfish, perfectly rational and relentlessly self-maximizing. Butjust ask yourselves, is it plausible that every single time for your entirelife, when you did something nice for somebody else, all you were doing wasmaximizing your own utility? Is it plausible that when a soldier jumps on agrenade to defend fellow soldiers, they're just promoting their narrowself-interest? If you think that's nuts, contrary to any reasonable moralintuition, that's because it is and, according to the latest science, not true.But it is this behavioral model which is at the cold, cruel heart of neoliberaleconomics, and it is as morally corrosive as it is scientifically wrongbecause, if we accept at face value that humans are fundamentally selfish, andthen we look around the world at all of the unambiguous prosperity in it, thenit follows logically, then it must be true by definition, that ofindividual acts of selfishness magically transubstantiate into prosperity andthe common good. If we humans are merely selfish maximizers, then selfishnessis the cause of our prosperity. Under this economic logic, greed is good,widening inequality is efficient, and the only purpose of the corporation canbe to enrich shareholders, because to do otherwise would be to slow economicgrowth and harm the economy overall. And it is this gospel of selfishness whichforms the ideological cornerstone of neoliberal economics, a way of thinkingwhich has produced economic policies which have enabled me and my rich buddiesin the top one percent to grab virtually all of the benefits of growth over thelast 40 years.

第三種假設(shè)，也是迄今為止最有害的假設(shè)，是一個(gè)行為模型，那就是將人類描述為“經(jīng)濟(jì)人”，這基本意思是我們都非常自私，完全的理性，并且不斷地自我最大化。但問(wèn)問(wèn)你自己，你覺(jué)得在你一生中當(dāng)你有助于他人時(shí)都只是為了最大化你自己的效用，這種說(shuō)法是可信的嗎？你覺(jué)得一個(gè)士兵舍身掩蓋住手榴彈去保護(hù)他的戰(zhàn)友時(shí)，他們只是在促進(jìn)他們的一己私利，這種說(shuō)法可信嗎？如果你覺(jué)得這太荒唐了了，與任何合理的道德直覺(jué)相反，因?yàn)樗拇_是如此，根據(jù)最新的科學(xué)研究，假的。但恰恰就是這個(gè)行為模型，這個(gè)以殘忍為核心的新自由主義經(jīng)濟(jì)，它在道德上的腐敗就如同它在科學(xué)上是如此錯(cuò)誤一樣，因?yàn)椋绻覀兘邮芰隋e(cuò)誤的想法——人類在本質(zhì)上是自私的，那么我們看著這個(gè)世界里所有清晰的繁榮景象，那么根據(jù)邏輯，根據(jù)定義它一定是正確的，數(shù)十億個(gè)人的自私行為奇跡般地轉(zhuǎn)化為繁榮和共同利益。如果我們?nèi)祟悆H僅是自私的放大化者，那么自私就是我們財(cái)富的來(lái)源。在這個(gè)經(jīng)濟(jì)邏輯下，貪婪是好的，擴(kuò)大不平等是有效的，公司的唯一目的，是讓股東變得更加富有，因?yàn)槿绻贿@樣做，經(jīng)濟(jì)增長(zhǎng)就會(huì)放緩，損害整體經(jīng)濟(jì)。就是這種自私的福音形成了新自由主義經(jīng)濟(jì)學(xué)的意識(shí)形態(tài)基石，這種產(chǎn)生經(jīng)濟(jì)政策思維方式讓我和我那些富有的朋友們進(jìn)入了前1%，從過(guò)去40年的經(jīng)濟(jì)增長(zhǎng)中獲益。

09:13

But, if instead we accept the latestempirical research, real science, which correctly describes human beings ashighly cooperative, reciprocal and intuitively moral creatures, then it followslogically that it must be cooperation and not selfishness that is the cause ofour prosperity, and it isn't our self-interest but rather our inherentreciprocity that is humanity's economic superpower.

但，如果相反，我們接受最新的實(shí)證研究，真正的科學(xué)，即正確地描述了人類是會(huì)高度合作，互惠的直覺(jué)上道德的生物，那么必然是合作 而不是自私 成就了我們的繁榮，并不僅僅是我們自身的利益 而是我們整體的互惠 才是人類經(jīng)濟(jì)的超力量。

09:49

So at the heart of this new economics is astory about ourselves that grants us permission to be our best selves, and,unlike the old economics, this is a story that is virtuous and also has thevirtue of being true.

所以，這個(gè)新經(jīng)濟(jì)的核心是一個(gè)關(guān)于我們自己的故事，允許我們做最好的自己，并且，與舊的經(jīng)濟(jì)學(xué)不同，這是一個(gè)善良的故事也有真實(shí)的美德。

10:09

Now, I want to emphasize that this neweconomics is not something I have personally imagined or invented. Its theoriesand models are being developed and refined in universities around the worldbuilding on some of the best new research in economics, complexity theory,evolutionary theory, psychology, anthropology and other disciplines. Andalthough this new economics does not yet have its own textbook or even acommonly agreed upon name, in broad strokes its explanation of where prosperitycomes from goes something like this.

現(xiàn)在，我想強(qiáng)調(diào)的是這種新的經(jīng)濟(jì)學(xué) 不是我個(gè)人想象或發(fā)明的。它的理論和模型正在發(fā)展和完善 在世界各地的大學(xué)里 基于一些最好的經(jīng)濟(jì)學(xué)新研究，復(fù)雜性理論，進(jìn)化論，心理學(xué)、人類學(xué)等學(xué)科。盡管這種新的經(jīng)濟(jì)學(xué)還沒(méi)有自己的教科書(shū)甚至一個(gè)大家都同意的名字，大體來(lái)說(shuō)它對(duì)繁榮從何而來(lái)的解釋是這樣的。

10:43

So, market capitalism is an evolutionarysystem in which prosperity emerges through a positive feedback loop betweenincreasing amounts of innovation and increasing amounts of consumer demand.Innovation is the process by which we solve human problems, consumer demand isthe mechanism through which the market selects for useful innovations, and aswe solve more problems, we become more prosperous. But as we become moreprosperous, our problems and solutions become more complex, and this increasingtechnical complexity requires ever higher levels of social and economiccooperation in order to produce the more highly specialized products thatdefine a modern economy.

所以，市場(chǎng)資本主義是一個(gè)進(jìn)化系統(tǒng)，在其中財(cái)富的涌現(xiàn)是通過(guò)在不斷增長(zhǎng)的創(chuàng)新和不斷增長(zhǎng)的消費(fèi)需求之間的正反饋循環(huán)而獲得的。創(chuàng)新是我們解決人類問(wèn)題的過(guò)程，消費(fèi)者需求是市場(chǎng)選擇有用創(chuàng)新的機(jī)制，隨著我們解決更多的問(wèn)題，我們變得更加繁榮。但隨著我們變得更加繁榮，我們的問(wèn)題和解決方案變得更加復(fù)雜，技術(shù)的復(fù)雜性也在增加需要更高水平的社會(huì)和經(jīng)濟(jì)合作以生產(chǎn)更加專業(yè)化的產(chǎn)品以定義現(xiàn)代經(jīng)濟(jì)。

11:36

Now, the old economics is correct, ofcourse, that competition plays a crucial role in how markets work, but what itfails to see is that it is largely a competition between highly cooperativegroups -- competition between firms, competition between networks of firms,competition between nations -- and anyone who has ever run a successful businessknows that building a cooperative team by including the talents of everyone isalmost always a better strategy than just a bunch of selfish jerks.

當(dāng)然，舊的經(jīng)濟(jì)學(xué)是對(duì)的，競(jìng)爭(zhēng)在市場(chǎng)運(yùn)作中起著至關(guān)重要的作用，但它卻忽視了在很大程度上這是高度合作的群體之間的競(jìng)爭(zhēng)——公司之間的競(jìng)爭(zhēng)，公司網(wǎng)絡(luò)之間的競(jìng)爭(zhēng)，國(guó)與國(guó)之間的競(jìng)爭(zhēng)——任何經(jīng)營(yíng)過(guò)成功企業(yè)的人都知道通過(guò)吸收每個(gè)人的才能來(lái)建立一個(gè)合作的團(tuán)隊(duì)這幾乎總是比一群自私的混蛋好得多的策略。

12:13

So how do we leave neoliberalism behind andbuild a more sustainable, more prosperous and more equitable society? The neweconomics suggests just five rules of thumb.

那么，我們?nèi)绾螌⑿伦杂芍髁x拋諸腦后 去建設(shè)一個(gè)更可持續(xù)、更繁榮的社會(huì) 和一個(gè)更公平的社會(huì)呢？ 新經(jīng)濟(jì)學(xué)提出了五條經(jīng)驗(yàn)法則。

12:32

First is that successful economies are notjungles, they're gardens, which is to say that markets, like gardens, must betended, that the market is the greatest social technology ever invented forsolving human problems, but unconstrained by social norms or democraticregulation, markets inevitably create more problems than they solve. Climatechange, the great financial crisis of 2008 are two easy examples.

首先，成功的經(jīng)濟(jì)體不是叢林，而是花園，也就是說(shuō)市場(chǎng)，就像花園，必須有人照料，市場(chǎng)是有史以來(lái)解決人類的問(wèn)題的最偉大的社會(huì)技術(shù)，但不受社會(huì)規(guī)范或民主監(jiān)管的約束，市場(chǎng)不可避免地會(huì)產(chǎn)生比它們解決的問(wèn)題更多的問(wèn)題。氣候變化，2008年的經(jīng)濟(jì)危機(jī)是兩個(gè)很簡(jiǎn)單的例子。

13:07

The second rule is that inclusion createseconomic growth. So the neoliberal idea that inclusion is this fancy luxury tobe afforded if and when we have growth is both wrong and backwards. The economyis people. Including more people in more ways is what causes economic growth inmarket economies.

第二點(diǎn)是，包容創(chuàng)造了經(jīng)濟(jì)增長(zhǎng)。所以這種新自由主義思想是 如果我們的經(jīng)濟(jì)增長(zhǎng)是 錯(cuò)誤的，而且是倒退的，那么這種包容就是我們 能夠負(fù)擔(dān)得起的奢侈。經(jīng)濟(jì)是人民的。包括更多人以更多不同的方式在市場(chǎng)經(jīng)濟(jì)中導(dǎo)致了經(jīng)濟(jì)的增長(zhǎng)。

13:37

The third principle is the purpose of thecorporation is not merely to enrich shareholders. The greatest grift incontemporary economic life is the neoliberal idea that the only purpose of thecorporation and the only responsibility of executives is to enrich themselvesand shareholders. The new economics must and can insist that the purpose of thecorporation is to improve the welfare of all stakeholders: customers, workers,community and shareholders alike.

第三點(diǎn)是公司的目的不只是為了使股東富裕。當(dāng)代經(jīng)濟(jì)生活中最大的騙局是新自由主義想法里公司的唯一目的，執(zhí)行主管的唯一責(zé)任是讓他們自己和股東變得更富。新經(jīng)濟(jì)必須并且堅(jiān)持企業(yè)的目的 是提升所有人利益： 顧客，工人，集體和股東一樣。

14:16

Rule four: greed is not good. Beingrapacious doesn't make you a capitalist, it makes you a sociopath.

第四：貪婪是錯(cuò)誤的。貪婪并不能讓你成為資本家，會(huì)讓你成為一個(gè)變態(tài)。

14:28

（Laughter）

（笑聲）

14:30

（Applause）

（歡呼）

14:35

And in an economy as dependent uponcooperation at scale as ours, sociopathy is as bad for business as it is forsociety.

在一個(gè)像我們這樣依賴 大規(guī)模合作的經(jīng)濟(jì)體中，社會(huì)病態(tài)對(duì)企業(yè)和社會(huì)都是有害的。

14:45

And fifth and finally, unlike the laws ofphysics, the laws of economics are a choice. Now, neoliberal economic theoryhas sold itself to you as unchangeable natural law, when in fact it's socialnorms and constructed narratives based on pseudoscience. If we truly want amore equitable, more prosperous and more sustainable economy, if we wanthigh-functioning democracies and civil society, we must have a new economics.

第五，也是最后一點(diǎn)，不像物理定律，經(jīng)濟(jì)學(xué)定律是一種選擇。新自由主義經(jīng)濟(jì)理論把自己當(dāng)作不變的自然法則說(shuō)服你，事實(shí)上，這種社會(huì)規(guī)范和構(gòu)建的說(shuō)法基于偽科學(xué)。如果我們真的想要一個(gè)更公平的，更加繁榮和可持續(xù)的經(jīng)濟(jì)，如果我們想要高功能的民主和民主社會(huì)，我們必須有新經(jīng)濟(jì)。

15:24

And here's the good news: if we want a neweconomics, all we have to do is choose to have it.

好消息是： 如果我們想要擁有新經(jīng)濟(jì)，我們所需要做的只是選擇去擁有它。

15:32

Thank you.

謝謝

15:34

（Applause）

（鼓掌）

15:51

Moderator: So Nick, I'm sure you get thisquestion a lot. If you're so unhappy with the economic system, why not justgive all your money away and join the 99 percent?

主持人:所以尼克,我相信你經(jīng)常會(huì)碰到這個(gè)問(wèn)題。如果你對(duì)經(jīng)濟(jì)體系如此不滿，為什么不捐出你所有的錢，加入那99%的人呢?

16:04

Nick Hanauer: Yeah, no, yes, right. You getthat a lot. You get that a lot. "If you care so much about taxes, whydon't you pay more, and if you care so much about wages, why don't you paymore?" And I could do that. The problem is, it doesn't make that muchdifference, and I have discovered a strategy that works literally a hundredthousand times better --

（鼓掌）尼克:是的，不，是的，沒(méi)錯(cuò)。經(jīng)常有人這么問(wèn)我?！叭绻氵@么在意稅收，為什么不多付一些呢? 如果你那么在意工資，為什么不多付一點(diǎn)呢?”我可以那么做。問(wèn)題是，那不會(huì)改變什么，我發(fā)現(xiàn)策略比那有用無(wú)數(shù)倍。

16:25

Moderator: OK.

主持人:好的。

16:26

NH:which is to use my money to buildnarratives and to pass laws that will require all the other rich people to paytaxes and pay their workers better.

尼克: 那就是用我的錢來(lái)建立敘事并通過(guò)法律，這將會(huì)要求所有其他富人為他們的工人支付更好的稅收。

16:34

（Applause）

（鼓掌）

16:35

And so, for example, the 15-dollar minimumwage that we cooked up has now affected 30 million workers. So that worksbetter.

所以，比如，我們制造的15美元的最低收入 現(xiàn)在已經(jīng)影響了3000萬(wàn)工人。這更有用。

16:43

Moderator: That's great. If you change yourmind, we'll find some takers for you.

主持人:太好了。如果你改變主意，我們會(huì)為你找到一些人選。

16:47

NH: OK. Thank you. Moderator: Thank youvery much.

尼克: 好的。謝謝你！ 主持人:非常感謝。