《大夢(mèng)想家》講述迪士尼經(jīng)典的幕后故事

Not Quite All Spoonfuls of Sugar

《大夢(mèng)想家》講述迪士尼經(jīng)典的幕后故事

For nearly 50 years, moviegoers have embraced “Mary Poppins” as a whimsical Disney classic about a magical English nanny, a twinkly chimney sweep and a London banker’s fractured family. But the new Disney film “Saving Mr. Banks,” written by Kelly Marcel and Sue Smith, shares two less cheerful tales. In flashback, it reveals the “Mary Poppins” author P. L. Travers’s sad past as an Australian girl with a hard-drinking father and a suicidal mother. The other story is of two weeks in 1961 when Walt Disney (Tom Hanks), who had been trying to secure the film rights from Ms. Travers (Emma Thompson) for nearly 20 years, finally lured her to California, where Disney staff composers, the Sherman Brothers (Jason Schwartzman and B. J. Novak), struggled to collaborate with her.

近半個(gè)世紀(jì)以來(lái)，電影觀眾把《歡樂滿人間》(Mary Poppins)看做一個(gè)奇思妙想的迪士尼經(jīng)典影片，講述一個(gè)有魔力的英國(guó)保姆、一個(gè)歡樂的掃煙囪人如何幫助一個(gè)倫敦銀行家破碎的家庭。但是由凱利·馬塞爾(Kelly Marcel)和蘇·史密斯(Sue Smith)編寫的迪士尼新片《大夢(mèng)想家》(Saving Mr. Banks)講述了兩個(gè)不那么歡樂的故事。它回顧了原著作者P·L·特拉弗斯(P. L. Travers)悲慘的童年，她是個(gè)澳大利亞女孩，父親酗酒，母親有自殺傾向。另一個(gè)故事是沃爾特·迪士尼(Walt Disney，湯姆·漢克斯[Tom Hanks]飾)花了近20年時(shí)間向特拉弗斯(艾瑪·湯普森[Emma Thompson]飾)爭(zhēng)取電影改編權(quán)，在1961年最終誘惑她來(lái)到加利福尼亞州。迪士尼公司的作曲家謝爾曼兄弟(Sherman Brothers，詹森·舒瓦茲曼[Jason Schwartzman]和B·J·諾瓦克[B. J. Novak]飾)吃力地和她合作了兩個(gè)星期。

Since “Saving Mr. Banks” opened last month, critics have praised Mr. Hanks’s performance as a grinning international impresario unaccustomed to being stonewalled, while Ms. Thompson, imbuing Travers with equal amounts exasperation, fierceness and vulnerability, has already been nominated for a Golden Globe and Screen Actors Guild award, and seems to be on track for an Oscar nod, as well.

漢克斯在《大夢(mèng)想家》中把迪斯尼塑造成一個(gè)國(guó)際化的藝術(shù)經(jīng)理人，他笑口常開，不習(xí)慣受到任何阻撓。自影片上個(gè)月上映以來(lái)，批評(píng)家們對(duì)漢克斯的表演交口稱贊。而湯普森在特拉弗斯這個(gè)角色身上注入了同等分量的惱怒、強(qiáng)悍和脆弱。湯普森已經(jīng)獲得了金球獎(jiǎng)和美國(guó)演員工會(huì)獎(jiǎng)提名，似乎也即將獲得奧斯卡的垂青。(編者注：艾瑪·湯普森最終沒有獲得本屆奧斯卡獎(jiǎng)最佳女主角提名。)

On a recent evening at the Walt Disney Studios in Burbank, Calif., Mr. Hanks and Ms. Thompson met with Margy Rochlin to talk about “Saving Mr. Banks” and their real-life counterparts. At one point this Oscar-winning pair even burst into a few bars of a Disney tune. These are excerpts from the conversation.

前不久的一個(gè)晚上，在加利福尼亞州伯班克的沃爾特·迪士尼制片廠，漢克斯和湯普森與瑪吉·羅克林(Margy Rochlin)談起了《大夢(mèng)想家》和現(xiàn)實(shí)生活中的這些人物。這兩位奧斯卡獎(jiǎng)得主甚至還唱了幾句迪士尼影片里的歌。下面是談話節(jié)選。

Q. Among other things, “Saving Mr. Banks” shows the adaptation process. Emma, how much of your own experiences adapting “Sense and Sensibility” and “Nanny McPhee” for the screen offered insight into Travers and what she was going through?

問：《大夢(mèng)想家》的其中一個(gè)方面是展示改編過(guò)程。艾瑪，你把《理智與情感》(Sense and Sensibility)和《魔法保姆麥克菲》(Nanny McPhee)改編成電影的經(jīng)驗(yàn)對(duì)你理解特拉弗斯和她的經(jīng)歷有多大幫助?

Emma Thompson The big difference is that I adapted a book as a screenplay. Screenplays are designed to be handed over to somebody else. She was writing something that came from some subatomic part of her that she wasn’t willing to let go [of] at all, because she relied on it emotionally.

艾瑪·湯普森：最大的不同是我把一本書改編成電影劇本。電影劇本是要轉(zhuǎn)交給別人看的。她當(dāng)時(shí)寫的東西來(lái)自她內(nèi)心深處的某個(gè)角落，而那個(gè)角落是她根本不愿意放手的，因?yàn)樗龔那楦猩弦蕾囁?/p>

Emma, you did quite a bit of research on Travers. Was she really that cold?

艾瑪，你深入地研究過(guò)特拉弗斯。她真的那么冷酷嗎?

Thompson Last night, when we were doing a Q. and A., Kelly [Marcel] said [Travers’s] grandchildren had said she’d died not loving anyone and nobody loving her. At which point, Tom burst into song.

湯普森：昨天晚上，我們做問答時(shí)，凱利(馬塞爾)說(shuō)(特拉弗斯的)孫子輩們說(shuō)她去世的時(shí)候不愛任何人，也沒人愛她。這時(shí)，湯姆忽然唱起了歌。

You sang? Tom, what did you sing?

你唱歌了?湯姆，你唱了什么?

Tom Hanks “Let’s Go Fly a Kite.” I needed to Disney-fy up the sad ending. [Laughs.]

湯姆·漢克斯：《讓我們?nèi)シ棚L(fēng)箏》(Let’s Go Fly a Kite)。我需要把這個(gè)悲哀的結(jié)局弄得有點(diǎn)迪士尼風(fēng)格[大笑]。

Travers insisted on taping her sessions with the Shermans, so there were hours of recordings available.

特拉弗斯堅(jiān)決要求把她和謝爾曼兄弟的討論錄下來(lái)，所以我們能聽到很長(zhǎng)時(shí)間的錄音。

Hanks Thirty nine hours of recordings. That must have been magnificent.

漢克斯：39個(gè)小時(shí)?？隙ê芫?。

Emma, what did you learn about her by listening to her voice?

艾瑪，聽到她的聲音，你對(duì)她又有了什么了解?

Thompson They were the biggest tell, the tapes. You can hear the distress, the tension and the resistance, just the purposeful sabotage in her voice. It’s fascinating.

湯普森：那些錄音透露的東西最多。你能從她的聲音中聽到沮喪、緊張和抗拒，她是在蓄意怠工。特別有意思。

How much of that distress came from being alone in a foreign country and outnumbered by Disney staffers?

她的沮喪有幾分是因?yàn)樗?dú)自在異國(guó)他鄉(xiāng)，迪士尼的工作人員人數(shù)太多?

Thompson I think she sounded like that most of the time. We can’t forget that she made absolutely no effort whatsoever to go out with them, to socialize with them. She wouldn’t even eat with them in the commissary here when they were working together. She was horrible. You can’t sugarcoat it in any way.

湯普森：我覺得她大部分時(shí)候聽起來(lái)都那樣。我們無(wú)法忘記她完全無(wú)意和他們一起出去，和他們交往。他們一起工作的時(shí)候，她甚至不和他們一起在食堂吃飯。她很討厭。你怎么都沒法兒粉飾。

Hanks She hated the script that she’d already read.

漢克斯：連她讀過(guò)的劇本，她也很厭惡。

Meanwhile, Tom, you’re playing the fellow who created the company whose movie it is. Can you walk us through what sounds like a strange job offer?

湯姆，你扮演的是拍攝這部電影的公司的創(chuàng)始人。你能跟我們談?wù)勥@個(gè)聽起來(lái)有點(diǎn)奇怪的工作嗎?

Hanks It was incredibly straightforward. [Disney’s chief executive, Robert A. Iger, called and] said: “Look, we have a bit of a circumstance here. We have to make this movie about Walt Disney. We didn’t develop it. It came to us from somewhere else. It’s a great script, and if we don’t do it, that means somebody else might be able to do it, and we’re going to look heartless. But if we quash it, we’ll look like we’re trying to hide something. So will you play Walt Disney?”

漢克斯：他們不可思議地坦率。(迪士尼的首席執(zhí)行官羅伯特·A·伊格[Robert A. Iger]打來(lái)電話)說(shuō)：“是這樣，我們這兒出了點(diǎn)狀況。我們必須得拍這部關(guān)于沃爾特·迪士尼的電影。這不是我們開發(fā)的項(xiàng)目，是別人送來(lái)的。這個(gè)劇本很棒，如果我們不拍，那別人可能會(huì)拍，我們就會(huì)看起來(lái)很無(wú)情。但是如果我們阻止的話，就會(huì)顯得我們?cè)诮吡ρ诓厥裁?。所以你愿意扮演沃爾?middot;迪士尼嗎?”

What happened after you said yes?

你答應(yīng)以后發(fā)生了什么事?

Hanks I was immediately dry-mouthed by the prospect. It’s just the hardest work that is to be done. There’s a billion hours of video, of Walt performing as Walt Disney, being a great guy. But I found enough actual footage of him in interviews when he’d really like to be done with the subject. When he doesn’t want to talk about “Fantasia” again, because what he’s really here to do is show you the new animatronic birds that are going to be going into the Enchanted Tiki Room. When I could find him showing any legitimate kind of consternation, that was worth its weight in gold.

漢克斯：我很快為將要發(fā)生的事情而興奮。這差不多是我遇到的最棘手的角色。沃爾特拍過(guò)無(wú)數(shù)視頻，在其中他力圖扮演“沃爾特·迪斯尼”的角色，使自己看上去像個(gè)偉人。但是我找到了足夠多他在采訪中流露真實(shí)自我的視頻——他真的不想再談?wù)撃硞€(gè)主題時(shí)的視頻。比如當(dāng)他不想再談?wù)摗秹?mèng)想曲》(Fantasia)時(shí)的視頻——因?yàn)樗?dāng)時(shí)想展示的是新的電子鳥，它們將被放入迪士尼魔幻音樂屋(Enchanted Tiki Room);還有他表現(xiàn)出某種正常的驚慌失措時(shí)的視頻——那對(duì)我來(lái)說(shuō)簡(jiǎn)直是如獲至寶。

Was the Disney family of assistance?

迪士尼的家人有沒有給予幫助?

Hanks The Disney family connection with Disney studios did not end well. When Roy Disney [Walt’s nephew] was still here, he was sort of creatively shunted aside but kept aboard for almost ceremonial reasons. Then eventually they left. Not unlike the filmmakers who sent the script to the Walt Disney Company wondering if they were going to get a cease-and-desist order, we went to see Diane Disney [Walt’s daughter] wondering if she was going to say, “I don’t like this idea at all.” But she wasn’t like that. Everybody got what it was about.

漢克斯：迪士尼家族與迪士尼電影公司的關(guān)系有個(gè)不太好的結(jié)局。羅伊·迪士尼(Roy Disney，沃爾特的侄子)還在的時(shí)候，差不多被巧妙地邊緣化了，幾乎只是由于禮儀方面的原因才留在公司。最終他們都離開了。就像電影制作人們把劇本送到沃爾特·迪士尼公司，擔(dān)心他們是否會(huì)得到勒令停止函一樣，我們?nèi)ヒ婘彀?middot;迪士尼(Diane Disney，沃爾特的女兒)的時(shí)候，也擔(dān)心她會(huì)說(shuō)，“我一點(diǎn)都不喜歡這個(gè)提議。”但是她沒有那樣說(shuō)。每個(gè)人都知道形勢(shì)是什么樣的。

Emma, how did you come up with her hair? Even in silhouette, your perm has an aura of emotional repression.

艾瑪，你是怎么想出讓她留那種發(fā)型的?你的燙發(fā)甚至從側(cè)面看都有一種壓抑的感覺。

Thompson The hair is what she had. She had curly hair, which she cut into a bubble bob, which she wore for most of her life. It kind of suited her. But there was a severity, too. It did so much work for me. There’s something tightly coiled about her and tightly coiled about her hair. It was fantastically useful to me, because I’m a straight-haired person, so it makes me look very different.

湯普森：那是她本人的發(fā)型。她的頭發(fā)本身就是卷的，她把它剪成了泡泡波波頭，她一生大部分時(shí)間都是這種發(fā)型。這挺適合她的。但是這種發(fā)型也給人一種嚴(yán)肅的感覺。它幫了我很大忙。她和她的發(fā)型都給人緊密纏繞的感覺。這對(duì)我非常有用，因?yàn)槲冶救耸侵卑l(fā)，所以，它讓我看起來(lái)很不一樣。

Were you always mindful that P. L. Travers was on the ropes financially when she finally relinquished the rights to “Mary Poppins”?

你是否一直記著P·L·特拉弗斯最終同意轉(zhuǎn)讓《瑪麗·波平斯》的改編權(quán)時(shí)，她在經(jīng)濟(jì)上很困難?

Thompson I think that’s a vital part of the story. She was alone.

湯普森：我覺得那是這個(gè)故事的一個(gè)關(guān)鍵因素。她孤立無(wú)援。

Hanks Know what? No one knows what they said to each other when push came to shove, but I’m almost willing to bet that it was all about money. “Hey, look, doll. You’re going to be an old bat and die here all by yourself. Don’t you want to have a bunch of money in your pocket? Well then, let me make the movie.” I’ll bet you anything that’s what went down.

漢克斯：咱們猜猜看。沒人知道在緊要關(guān)頭他們對(duì)彼此說(shuō)了什么，但是我?guī)缀蹩梢源蛸€，他們談的全是錢。“嘿，你瞧，美女。你會(huì)變成老太太，孤獨(dú)老死。難道你不想口袋里有很多錢嗎?那就讓我拍這部電影吧。”我敢跟你打賭他當(dāng)時(shí)是這么說(shuō)的。

Thompson And it’s not just a financial question. It comes from the age-old difficulty of women being written about by Austen onward. What do you do? How do you make a living, if you’re not going to be married to someone who’s going to pay your bills?

湯普森：它不只是經(jīng)濟(jì)問題。它源于從奧斯汀起人們一直在談?wù)摰年P(guān)于女人的那個(gè)古老的難題。你何以謀生?如果你不嫁個(gè)男人來(lái)給你付賬單，你怎么謀生?

“Saving Mr. Banks” is also a movie about the limits of charm in business dealings. Walt Disney had it. P. L. Travers was put off by it.

《大夢(mèng)想家》也是一部展現(xiàn)商業(yè)交易的魅力的極限的電影。沃爾特·迪士尼擁有這種魅力。P·L·特拉弗斯則被它征服了。

Hanks I can’t smile like he could. My smile looks kind of demonic. But his was kind of “Isn’t it wonderful to be alive?” And he’d done that everywhere — from the U.N. to every room he walked into.

漢克斯：我做不到像他那樣微笑。我的微笑看起來(lái)有點(diǎn)邪惡。但是他的微笑像是在說(shuō)：“生活真是太美好了，不是嗎?”他在哪里都那樣笑，從聯(lián)合國(guó)到他走進(jìn)的每個(gè)房間。

Thompson You’re talking about two different ends of a spectrum that is actually quite wide and varied. You’re talking about someone who had the power to charm the birds from the trees and someone who refused on every level to use it. She could charm. I know she could. I read about it, and her friends told me. She just never ever did.

湯普森：他們兩人處在一個(gè)很寬、很多樣化的光譜的兩端。其中一個(gè)人簡(jiǎn)直有能力把鳥兒從樹上引誘下來(lái)，另一個(gè)則拒絕從任何層面施展這種魅力。她能施展魅力。我知道她能。我讀的一些文章提到了這一點(diǎn)，她的朋友們也這樣跟我說(shuō)。她只是從不施展。

Emma, Travers was extremely private. You, on the other hand, seem open to sharing your life’s every detail.

艾瑪，特拉弗斯非常注意保護(hù)隱私。而你似乎愿意公開你生活的所有細(xì)節(jié)。

Thompson We’re very different people. I feel a kinship with all human beings. She was so protected and defended.

湯普森：我們很不一樣。我與所有的人都有一種親近感。她卻非常自我保護(hù)，有一種防衛(wèi)心理。

So how did you find a way into her?

那你是怎么找到辦法進(jìn)入這個(gè)角色的呢?

Thompson She was a tough nut to crack. When I’m creating a character, I sort of do a brass rubbing, sort of put some tracing paper over the character and rub it and then think, “Which bits?” Of course, the father-daughter thing, the loss of the father’s storytelling abilities and the loss of his control, the loss of his power is very much a connective bit for me. My father had a stroke when he was 48. I say this as I am literally rubbing my neck because it was so distressing. He couldn’t speak, and I was the only person he allowed to teach him to talk again. So I was with my father when I was 18, 19 with little cards which said, “I am” and “you are.” I thought, “I’m being given this sacred task,” but it tore me apart.

湯普森：她是個(gè)棘手的人物。我塑造一個(gè)人物時(shí)，差不多是在拓印，像是把描圖紙放到這個(gè)人物身上，摩擦它，然后想，“這是哪個(gè)部位?”當(dāng)然，父女之間的事，父親失去講故事的能力，失去控制力，失去力量對(duì)我來(lái)說(shuō)是個(gè)很重要的連接點(diǎn)。我爸爸在48歲時(shí)中風(fēng)了。我提到這一點(diǎn)時(shí)很痛苦，因?yàn)樗娴牧钊司趩?。他不能說(shuō)話，只允許我一個(gè)人教他說(shuō)話。當(dāng)時(shí)我十八九歲，我和爸爸在一起，拿著小卡片，上面寫著“我是”和“你是”。當(dāng)時(shí)我想，“我得到了一個(gè)神圣的任務(wù)，”但是它把我搞得心力交瘁。

When my father came to Cambridge, when I was graduating, he’d had his stroke, and he couldn’t speak properly. He slurred his words, and he didn’t want anyone to know that it was because he had a stroke, so the teachers thought he was drunk. So there were those connections. But I think most artists are fundamentally inconsolable. That’s why they keep doing it.

我畢業(yè)的時(shí)候，父親到劍橋看我，他當(dāng)時(shí)已經(jīng)中風(fēng)了，所以不能好好說(shuō)話。他說(shuō)得含糊不清，他不想讓別人知道那是因?yàn)樗酗L(fēng)了，所以老師們以為他是酒鬼。所以我和她之間存在這些聯(lián)系。但是我認(rèn)為大多數(shù)藝術(shù)家從根本上講都是悲痛萬(wàn)分的。這是他們不斷搞藝術(shù)的原因。

Travers was certainly so. According to [the songwriter] Richard Sherman, she went up to Disney after seeing “Mary Poppins” at the premiere and told him she had ideas to improve the film.

特拉弗斯顯然是這樣的。據(jù)(作曲家)理查德·謝爾曼(Richard Sherman)說(shuō)，她在首映式上看完《歡樂滿人間》之后，找到迪士尼，跟他說(shuō)她有些提議，可以改進(jìn)這部電影。

Thompson Yes, and he said, “Pam, the ship has sailed.”

湯普森：是的，他說(shuō)，“帕姆，木已成舟。”

And then?

然后呢?

Hanks And then he walked away from her. He was done.

漢克斯：然后他轉(zhuǎn)身離開了。他已經(jīng)完事了。