演講MP3+雙語文稿:隔離墻不能解決國家的邊境問題

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【演講者及介紹】Will Hurd

政治家-威爾·赫德（Will Hurd）議員在美國眾議院代表得克薩斯州第23選區(qū)，為從圣安東尼奧到埃爾帕索的29個縣和兩個時區(qū)的選民服務(wù)。Will Hurd議員在美國眾議院代表得克薩斯州第23選區(qū)，為從圣安東尼奧到埃爾帕索的29個縣和兩個時區(qū)的選民服務(wù)。

刑事司法改革家安妮·米爾格拉姆（Anne Milgram）致力于利用數(shù)據(jù)和分析技術(shù)來打擊犯罪。

【演講主題】隔離墻不能解決美國的邊境問題

【中英文字幕】

翻譯者Nan Yang 校對者Lipeng Chen

00:13

Anne Milgram: Congressman, I was about to introduce you and say a little more --

安妮·米爾格拉姆： 議員先生，接下來我會介紹你，然后說一些——

00:17

Will Hurd: Hey, Anne. How are you?

威爾·赫德： 嘿，安妮，你好嗎？

00:19

AM: Hi, how are you doing? Thank you so much for joining us tonight. We're so lucky to have you here with us. I've already explained that you're actually in Washington because you're working. And I was about to tell folks that you represent the 23rd district of Texas. But maybe you could tell us a little bit about your district and describe it for us.

安妮：你好。非常感謝今晚你的參與。非常幸運今天能邀請到你。我已經(jīng)跟大家解釋過了 因為工作原因，你現(xiàn)在人在華盛頓。而且我正要告訴大家 你代表的是德克薩斯州的 23 區(qū)。也許你可以跟我們 多介紹一下 23 區(qū)，為我們描述一下吧。

00:40

WH: Sure, my district in Southwest Texas is 29 counties, two time zones, 820 miles of border from Eagle Pass, Texas all the way to El Paso. It takes 10 and a half hours to drive across my district at 80 miles an hour, which is the speed limit in most of the district. And I found out a couple of weekends ago, it's not the speed limit in all the district.

威爾：沒問題，我代表的區(qū)在 德克薩斯西南部，包括 29 個縣，跨越 2 個時區(qū)，從伊格爾帕斯市 一直到埃爾帕索市，沿著邊境線共 820 英里。大部分地方的限速 是 80 英里每小時，穿越這個區(qū)需要 10 個半小時。然而我們幾周前才發(fā)現(xiàn)，這并不是整個區(qū)的限速。

01:03

(Laughter)

（笑聲）

01:04

It's a 71-percent Latino district, and it's the district that I've been representing for now my third term in Congress. And when you think about the issue of the border, I have more border than any other member of Congress. I spent nine and a half years as an undercover officer in the CIA, chasing bad people all across the country. So when it comes to securing our border, it's something I know a little bit about.

這里 71% 人口是拉丁裔，這個區(qū)是我在國會的第三任期 所代表的區(qū)。當你們想到邊境問題時，我比其它國會議員 擁有更多的邊境區(qū)域。我曾花了 9 年半時間以 CIA （中央情報局） 臥底的身份 在全國各處追捕壞人。所以當要來保衛(wèi)邊境時，我對此方面了解得非常少。

01:31

AM: One of the things I learned recently which I hadn't known before is that your district is actually the size, I think, of the state of Georgia?

安妮：我最近才知道的一件事情是 你這個區(qū)的占地大小，我想 跟整個佐治亞州差不多？

01:41

WH: That's right. It's larger than 26 states, roughly the size of the state of Georgia. So it's pretty big.

威爾：對的。它比 26 個州的面積大，基本上等于佐治亞州的大小。所以它很大。

01:48

AM: So as an expert in national security and as a member of Congress, you've been called upon to think about issues related to immigration, and in recent years, particularly about the border wall. What is your reaction to President Trump's statement that we need a big, beautiful wall that would stretch across our border, and at 18 to 30 feet high?

安妮：你作為國家安全方面的專家 和國會議員之一，曾經(jīng)被要求去考慮 移民相關(guān)的問題，特別是最近幾年的邊境墻問題。你對于特朗普總統(tǒng)的聲明—— 我們需要在邊境建造巨大、美觀、 高度在 18 到 30 英尺的墻，有什么看法？

02:12

WH: I've been saying this since I first ran for Congress back in 2009, this is not a new topic, that building a 30-foot-high concrete structure from sea to shining sea is the most expensive and least effective way to do border security. There are parts of the border where Border Patrol's response time to a threat is measured in hours to days. If your response time is measured in hours to days, then a wall is not a physical barrier. We should be having technology along the border, we should have operation control of our border, which means we know everything that's going back and forth across it. We can do a lot of that with technology. We also need more folks within our border patrol. But in addition to doing all this, one of the things we should be able to do is streamline legal immigration. If you're going to be a productive member of our society, let's get you here as quickly as possible, but let's do it legally. And if we're able to streamline that, then you're going to see some of the pressures relieved along our border and allow men and women in Border Patrol to focus on human trafficking and drug-trafficking organizations as well.

威爾：其實我在 2009 年 競選國會議員時就說過這件事，這并不是一個新的議題，從東海岸到西海岸建造一個 30 英尺高的混凝土結(jié)構(gòu)建筑 是一種對保衛(wèi)邊境安全最昂貴 又最無效的方法。在部分邊境，邊境巡邏隊對威脅的響應(yīng)時間 以小時或天計算。如果響應(yīng)時間如此之長，那么這個墻并不是物理上的屏障。我們需要沿著邊境應(yīng)用一些技術(shù)，需要有對邊境的行動控制，意味著我們需要了解 從邊境來回穿越的所有東西。我們可以利用技術(shù)做很多事情，我們也需要邊境巡邏隊 引入更多人員。但是除了做這些，我們還需要做的事情之一 是簡化合法移民入境流程。如果你會成為我們社會中 有生產(chǎn)力的一員，我們會盡快讓你移民到這里，而且得通過合法途徑。如果我們能夠簡化 合法移民入境流程，你們會看見我們邊境壓力被緩解，而且會讓邊境巡邏隊更專注于 人口販賣和販毒組織。

03:23

AM: Congressman, there's also been a conversation nationally about using emergency funds to build the border wall and taking those funds from the United States military. What has your position been on that issue?

安妮： 議員先生，全國范圍內(nèi)還有一種討論，關(guān)于使用緊急資金 和來自美國軍方的資金 建造邊境墻。你在這個問題上持何立場？

03:39

WH: I'm one of the few Republicans up here that has opposed that effort. We are just now rebuilding our military, and taking funds away from making sure that our brothers and sisters, our wives and our husbands have the training and equipment they need in order to take care of us in far-flung places -- taking money away from them is not an efficient use of our resources, especially if it's going to build a ... you know, I always say it's a fourth-century solution to a 21st-century problem. And the reality is, what we should be focusing on is some of the other root causes of this problem, and many of your speakers today have talked about that. Some of those key root problems are violence, lack of economic opportunity and extreme poverty, specifically, in the Northern Triangle: El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras. We should be working --

威爾：我是對此持反對意見的 少數(shù)共和黨人之一。我們現(xiàn)在正在重建我們的軍隊，需要資金來確保 我們的兄弟姐妹，我們的妻子或丈夫 得到他們所需的培訓(xùn)和裝備，來在遙遠的地方保護我們，從他們那拿走資金并不是 使用資源的有效方式，特別是當為了建造一個—— 我把這個形容為四世紀的解決方案，不是二十一世紀的。實際上，我們應(yīng)該關(guān)注的是 這個問題的某些根本原因，如今很多發(fā)言人都講到了這個。一些關(guān)鍵的根本問題包括 暴力行為，就業(yè)機會的匱乏 和極端的貧窮，特別是在北三角形： 薩爾瓦多、危地馬拉和洪都拉斯。我們應(yīng)該努力——

04:39

AM: I was going to ask what you would recommend United States government does to address the underlying, what we call push factors, or root causes in those three countries in Central America?

安妮：我是打算問你，你會建議 美國政府如何解決 這三個中美洲國家的底層問題，也就是我們所說的 推動因素或者根本原因的？

04:50

WH: One of the things I learned as an undercover officer in the CIA is be nice with nice guys and tough with tough guys. And one of the principles of being nice with nice guys is to strengthen our alliances. We have a number of programs currently in these three countries that USAID and the State Department is doing to address this violence issue. And we know, in El Salvador, one of the problems was that the police were corrupt. And so we've worked with the Salvadorians to purge the police, rehire new folks, use community policing tactics. These are tactics the men and women in the United States of America and police forces use every single day. And when we did this in certain communities, guess what happened? We saw a decrease in the violence that was happening in those communities. And then we also saw a decrease in the number of people that were leaving those areas to try to come to the United States illegally. So it's a fraction of the cost to solve a problem there, before it ultimately reaches our border. And one of the reasons that you have violence and crime is political corruption and the lack of central governments to protect its citizens. And so this is something we should be continuing to work on. We shouldn't be decreasing the amount of money that we have that we're sending to these countries. I actually think we should be increasing it. I believe the first thing -- we should have done this months ago -- is select a special representative for the Northern Triangle. That's a senior diplomat that's going to work to make sure we're using all of our levers of power to help these three countries, and then that we're doing it in a coordinated effort. This is not just a problem for the United States and Mexico, this is a problem for the entire western hemisphere. So, where is the Organization of American States? Where is the International Development Bank? We should be having a collective plan to address these root causes.

威爾：在我做臥底的時候 我學(xué)到的東西之一就是 對好人友好，對野蠻人強硬。而對好人友好的原則之一是 要加強我們的聯(lián)盟?，F(xiàn)在在這三個國家 我們有很多項目，USAID（美國國際開發(fā)署）和國務(wù)院 正在致力于解決暴力問題。正如我們所知，在薩爾瓦多，問題之一是警察腐敗。所以我們正與薩爾瓦多人 一起清理警隊，雇傭新人，施行社區(qū)警務(wù)策略。這些策略是美國的男男女女 和警察部隊 每天使用的。當我們在某些社區(qū)實行時，猜猜發(fā)生了什么？ 我們在這些社區(qū)看見了 暴力的減少。而且之后我們也看見了 那些曾試圖離開那塊地方 并想非法進入美國的人數(shù)在減少。所以這是在最終 到達我們的邊界之前，解決問題的成本的一部分。而有暴力和犯罪問題的原因之一 就是警察腐敗 和缺少中央政府對公民的保護。所以我們應(yīng)該繼續(xù)進行下去。我們不應(yīng)該減少我們正在運送到 這些國家的資金數(shù)量。實際上我認為 我們應(yīng)該提高資金量。我相信，在幾個月前 我們就應(yīng)該做的第一件事 就是為北三角區(qū) 選擇一位特別的代表。一位高級外交官，可以確保我們使用所有級別的能力 幫助這三個國家，然后我們再結(jié)合全體的力量進行。這不只是美國和墨西哥的問題，這是整個西半球的問題。所以，美洲國家組織在哪里？ 國際發(fā)展銀行在哪里？ 我們應(yīng)該有一個集體計劃 來解決這些根本原因。

06:50

And when you talk about violence, a lot of times, we talk about these terrible gangs like MS-13. But it's also violence like women being beaten by their husbands. And they have nobody else to go to, and they are unable to deal with this current problem. So these are the types of issues that we should be increasing our diplomacy, increasing our economic development aid.

而當我們談?wù)摫┝?，很多時候，我們討論的是 那些可怕的幫派，例如 MS-13. 但是這也包括像 婦女被丈夫家暴。而且她們沒有其它地方可去，她們無法解決當前的問題。所以對于這類問題，我們應(yīng)該增強我們的外交，提高我們的經(jīng)濟發(fā)展援助。

07:17

AM: Please, I want to take you now from thinking about the root causes in Central America to thinking about the separation of children and families in the United States. Starting in April 2018, the Trump administration began a no-tolerance policy for immigrants, people seeking refugee status, asylum in the United States. And that led to the separation of 2,700 children in the first year that that program was run. Now, I want to address this with you, and I want to separate it up front into two different conversations. One of the things that the administration did was file legal court papers, saying that one of the primary purposes of the separations was to act as a deterrent against people coming to the United States. And I want to talk for a moment about that from a moral perspective and to get your views.

安妮：我現(xiàn)在想帶你 從思考中美洲的根本原因轉(zhuǎn)移到 思考在美國出現(xiàn)的 兒童與家人分離的問題。自 2018 年四月份起，特朗普政府開始對在美國 尋求難民身份庇護的移民人員 發(fā)起了一個零容忍策略。這個程序?qū)嵭械牡谝荒昃蛯?dǎo)致了 2700 個兒童與家人的分離?，F(xiàn)在，我想和你談?wù)勥@個，而且我想把這個分成 兩個不同的對話。政府做的事情之一 是提交了合法法庭文件，闡述這些分離的主要目的之一 是為了對來美國的人們 起威懾作用。我想花點時間 從道德的角度聊一下，然后了解你的意見。

08:14

WH: We shouldn't be doing it, period. It's real simple. And guess what, it wasn't a deterrent. You only saw an increase in the amount of illegal immigration. And when you're sitting, debating a strategy, if somebody comes up with the idea of snatching a child out of their mother's arms, you need to go back to the drawing board. This is not what the United States of America stands for, this is not a Republican or a Democrat or independent thing. This is a human decency thing. And so, using that strategy, it didn't achieve the ultimate purpose. And ultimately, the amount of research that is done and the impact that the detention of children has -- especially if it's over 21 days -- has on their development and their future is disastrous. So we shouldn't be trying to detain children for any more than 21 days, and we should be getting children, if they're in our custody, we should be taking care of them humanely, and making sure they're with people that can provide them a safe and loving environment.

威爾：我們不應(yīng)該這樣做，就這樣，非常簡單。你們猜怎么著，那并不是威懾。非法移民數(shù)量反而在增多。當我們坐著討論策略時，如果某個人提出 把孩子從母親懷抱中奪走的想法，你們應(yīng)該回到最初重新開始。這種想法不是美國所代表的，也不是共和黨、民主黨 或獨立黨的東西。這事關(guān)人類尊嚴。所以，實行那個策略，并沒有實現(xiàn)最終的目的。而最終，許多研究證明，孩子的拘禁， 尤其是超過 21 天的拘禁，對于他們的成長和未來 所造成的影響 是災(zāi)難性的。所以我們不應(yīng)該嘗試 扣留孩子超過 21 天，我們不應(yīng)該去扣留，如果他們在我們的監(jiān)護下，我們應(yīng)該人道的照顧他們，確保他們跟可以為他們 提供有安全環(huán)境的人呆在一起。

09:21

AM: I would challenge you even on the 21-day number, but for the purposes of this conversation, I want to follow up on something you just said, which is both that it's wrong to detain children, and that it's not effective. So the question, then, is why does the administration continue to do it, when we've seen 900 additional children separated from their parents since the summer of 2018? Why is this happening?

安妮：我甚至想質(zhì)疑 你 21 天這個數(shù)字，但是為了這個談話的目的，我想繼續(xù)追問一些你剛剛說的，就是扣留孩子既是錯誤的，也是無效的。所以問題是，為什么政府繼續(xù)這樣做，自 2018 年夏季我們看見了 又有 900 個孩子 離開了他們的父母？ 為什么還在發(fā)生？

09:46

WH: Well, that's something that you'd have to ultimately ask the administration. These are questions that I've been asking. The Tornillo facility is in my district. These are buildings that are not designed to hold anybody for multiple days, let alone children. We should be making sure that if they are in our custody -- a lot of times for the uncompanied children, we don't have a ... we don't know of a patron or a family member in the United States, and we should make sure that they're in facilities where they're able to go to school and have proper food and health care. And if we're able to find a sponsor or family member, let's get them into that custody, while they're waiting for their immigration court case. That's the other issue here. When you have a backlog of cases -- I think it's now 900,000 cases that are backlogged -- we should be able to do an immigration hearing within nine months. I think most of the legal community thinks that is enough time to do something like this, so that we can facilitate whether someone, an individual, is able to stay in the United States or they're going to have to be returned back to their home country, rather than being in this limbo for five years.

威爾：這是你最終需要 問政府的事。這些問題我也一直在問。托尼洛設(shè)施（扣留移民人員的場所） 就在我的轄區(qū)。這些建筑不是設(shè)計來容納任何人 很多天的，更別說孩子了。我們應(yīng)該確保，如果他們在我們的監(jiān)護下—— 對于無人陪伴的孩子，有很多次 我們沒有 …… 我們不知道他們?nèi)魏卧诿绹?資助人或者家庭成員，而且我們需要確保 在那里的孩子 能夠去學(xué)校，有適當?shù)氖澄锖歪t(yī)療保健。如果我們能為他們找到 一個資助人或者家庭成員，我們會讓他們等待 移民案子的同時對孩子進行監(jiān)護。這里我們又有了另一個問題。當我們有案件積壓—— 我想現(xiàn)在有 90 萬件案子積壓—— 我們應(yīng)該可以在九個月內(nèi) 進行一個移民聽證。我認為大部分的法律界人士 覺得這段時間足夠 去做這樣的事情，這樣我們能夠促成一個人 是留在美國 或者被遣返回自己的國家的決定，而不需要在這個地方待五年。

11:06

AM: If we think about the asylum system today, where people are coming and saying that they have a credible threat, that they will be persecuted back home, and we think about the fact that on average, it's about two years for someone to get an asylum hearing, that many people are not represented as they go through that process, it makes me think about something that they say in the health care space all the time, which is that every system is perfectly designed to get the results it gets. And so as you think about this and think about how we would redesign this system to not do what we're doing, which is years and years of detention and separations and hardship for people seeking -- and again, asylum being a lawful United States government process -- for people seeking to enter our country lawfully. What should we do?

安妮：如果我們考慮 現(xiàn)在的庇護系統(tǒng)，當人們來到這兒說 他們正面對可信的威脅，也就是他們將被遣送回家，從事實上考慮，平均需要等待兩年 才能進行庇護聽證會，很多人因為要經(jīng)過那個流程 而無法出現(xiàn)，這讓我思考 人們一直說到的醫(yī)療保健領(lǐng)域，每一個系統(tǒng)都是為了 它所要得到的結(jié)果 而設(shè)計的。所以當你考慮 我們要如何重新設(shè)計這個系統(tǒng)，不再做現(xiàn)在我們做的事情，就是年復(fù)一年的 扣押、分離、痛苦，當了人們尋找—— 重申一下，需求庇護是 合法的美國政府流程—— 為了人們尋找機會 合法進入我們的國家。我們應(yīng)該做什么？

11:57

WH: I tried to increase by four billion dollars the amount of resources that HHS has in order to specifically deal, ultimately, with children. I think we need more immigration judges in order to process these cases, and I think we need to ensure that folks can get representation. I've been able to work with a number of lawyers up and down the border to make sure they are being able to get access to the folks that are having these problems. And so this is something that we should be able to design. And ultimately, when it comes to children, we should be doing everything we can when they're in our custody, in order to take care of them.

威爾：我試過將 美國衛(wèi)生及公共服務(wù)部資金 提高 40 億美元，來特別為孩子服務(wù)。我認為我們需要更多的移民法官 來處理這些案子，而且我認為我們需要確保 他們能夠得到法律代表。我一直在和一些律師 在邊境內(nèi)外工作，確保他們可以接觸到 那些有這些問題的人。所以這些事情是 我們應(yīng)該可以設(shè)計的。最終，當涉及孩子時，我們可以在監(jiān)護他們的時候，盡一切可能 照顧他們。

12:41

AM: So I have two more questions for you before I'm going to let you go back to work. The first is about our focus in the United States on the questions of immigration. Because if you look at some of the statistics, you see that of people who are undocumented in the United States, the majority of people have overstayed on visas, they haven't come through the border. If you look at the people who try to enter the country who are on the terrorist watch list, they enter overwhelmingly through the airports and not through the border. If we look at drugs coming into the United States, which has been a huge part of this conversation, the vast majority of those drugs come through our ports and through other points of entry, not through backpacks on people crossing the border. So the thing I always ask and I always worry about with government, is that we focus so much on one thing, and my question for you is whether we are focused in this conversation nationally about the border, every day and every minute of every day, whether we're looking completely in the wrong direction.

安妮：在讓你回去工作之前 我還有兩個問題要問你。第一是關(guān)于移民問題，美國人的關(guān)注點。因為如果你看一些數(shù)據(jù)，會看見那些在美國的 無證移民，大部分都是簽證過期逗留，而不是從邊境過來的。如果你看那些 在恐怖分子監(jiān)視名單上，試圖進入美國的人，他們絕大部分是從機場進入的，而不是從邊境。如果我們看看今天討論的 一個主要部分，進入美國的毒品，大部分的毒品從港口 和其它入口進入，而不是由穿越邊境的人 藏在背包里帶來。所以我一直問的，也是我對于政府感到擔憂的，是我們過多關(guān)注在一件事上。我的問題是，在全國范圍內(nèi)，我們時時刻刻 都在談?wù)撨吘硢栴}，是不是我們完全選錯了方向？

13:46

WH: I would agree with your premise. When you have -- let's start with the economic benefits. When you have 3.6 percent unemployment, what does that mean? That means you need folks in every industry, whether it's agriculture or artificial intelligence. So why aren't we streamlining legal immigration? We should be able to make this market based in order to have folks come in and be productive members of our society. When it comes to the drug issue you're talking about, yes, it's in our ports of entry, but it's also coming in to our shores. Coast Guard is only able to action 25 percent of the known intelligence they have on drugs coming into our country. The metric that we should be measuring [is] are we seeing a decrease of deaths from overdose from drugs overseas, are we seeing a decrease in illegal immigration? It's not how many miles of fencing that we have ultimately built. And so we have benefited from the brain drain of every other country for the last couple of decades. I want to see that continue, and I want to see that continue with the hardworking drain. And I can sell you this: at last Congress, Pete Aguilar, a Democrat from California, and I had a piece of legislation called the USA Act: strong border security, streamline legal immigration, fix DACA -- 1.2 million kids who have only known the United States of America as their home -- these kids, or I should say young men and women, they are already Americans, let's not have them go through any more uncertainty and make that ultimately happen. We had 245 people that were willing to sign this bill into law, it wasn't allowed to come forward under a Republican speaker, and also the current Democratic speaker hasn't brought this bill through in something that we would be able to pass.

威爾：我同意你的前提。當你—— 讓我從經(jīng)濟利益說起。當你有 3.6% 的失業(yè)率，意味著什么？ 這意味著每個行業(yè)都需要人，無論是農(nóng)業(yè)還是人工智能。所以為什么我們 不簡化合法移民的流程？ 我們應(yīng)該將讓它順應(yīng)市場需求，鼓勵人們來到這兒，成為我們社會里有生產(chǎn)力的一員。當說到我們討論的毒品問題，是的，毒品是從入境口岸來的，但是也有些來自我們的海岸。海岸警衛(wèi)隊只能 對進入我們國家的毒品里 已知情報的 25% 進行針對性的行動。我們應(yīng)該衡量的指標 是我們看見因為服用海外毒品 致死的人數(shù)的減少，是我們看見非法移民的減少，不是我們最終建了多長的籬笆。而且在過去幾十年 我們已經(jīng)從其它國家的人才流失 受益。我想看到這個趨勢繼續(xù)下去，我也想看到辛苦工作的人 源源不斷的來到美國。而且我可以告訴你們： 在上一次國會會議上，來自加州的 民主黨人皮特·阿吉拉爾，和我 提出了一項立法，稱為: 美國法——更強的邊境安全，簡化合法移民流程，修復(fù)《兒童入境暫緩計劃》—— 120萬已經(jīng)只把美國當作家的 孩子們，或者我應(yīng)該說年輕的男孩和女孩，他們已經(jīng)是美國人，我們不要讓他們再經(jīng)歷不確定性，不要讓那發(fā)生。我們有 245 人已經(jīng)愿意 將這個法案簽署進法律中，但這個無法在共和黨 發(fā)言人的言辭中出現(xiàn)，而且現(xiàn)在民主黨發(fā)言人也沒有 將這個法案帶入到可能通過的地方。

15:35